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Rudy's court bid to overturn Biden victory turns to farce as he forgets judge's name...
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Miloch
2020-11-18 17:45:04 UTC
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...calls other lawyer 'that angry man,' claims 11 biggest cities are conspiring
to steal election, then gets directions to nearest bar (and demands $20,000 a
day!)

more at
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8962181/Rudy-Giuliani-goes-court-overturn-election-results-forgets-judges-name.html

*Rudy Giuliani appeared in-person at federal court in Williamsport, PA

*He has taken over Donald Trump's fight to throw out votes in Pennsylvania and
other states Joe Biden carried

*He forgot judge's name, called the opposition lawyer 'that angry man' and
claimed 11 of the biggest cities had a conspiracy to steal the election

*He claimed only a 'fool' would think it accidental that Biden won the biggest
cities

*District Judge William Brann gave him until 5pm Wednesday to file a new brief;

*Earlier he said the legal team might lose in order to advance its case

*'We're prepared in some of these cases to lose and to appeal and to get it to
the Supreme Court,' Giuliani said

Rudy Giuliani returned to federal court for the first time since 1992 to argue
for his client Donald Trump Tuesday, as the president ran out of lawyers and
legal options, and was left using the former mayor as his frontman.

But the hearing was far from smooth or convincing, with Giuliani stumbling over
the law and the facts, calling his opponent 'that man who was angry at me' and
needing the meaning of 'opacity' explained to him by the judge.

'In the plaintiffs' counties, they were denied the opportunity to have an
unobstructed observation and ensure opacity,' Giuliani said. 'I'm not quite sure
I know what opacity means. It probably means you can see, right?'

'It means you can't,' said U.S. District Judge Matthew Brann in Williamsport,
PA.

'Big words, your honor,' Giuliani, 76, said.

The case is one of Trump's few remaining opportunities to stop hundreds of
thousands of votes in Pennsylvania counting towards the election result,
offering him the beginning of a legal path which could overturn the election
result.

The Trump campaign is seeking to prevent Pennsylvania from certifying its
election.

The lawsuit is based on a complaint that Philadelphia and six
Democratic-controlled counties in Pennsylvania let voters make corrections to
mail-in ballots that were otherwise going to be disqualified for a technicality,
like lacking a secrecy envelope or a signature.

It is not clear how many ballots that could involve, although some opposing
lawyers say it is far too few to overturn the election result. President-elect
Joe Biden won the state by more than 70,000 votes.

Giuliani began the legal case saying he wants around 600,000 cases thrown out,
but the number went up in the court of the day to as many as two million.

As lawyer after lawyer quit his side, Trump's legal adviser Giuliani ended up in
court himself. His last federal appearance was as U.S. Attorney in Manhattan in
1992, the job which made him famous; his last court date was representing his
alleged mistress's daughter in Florida in 2018.

Over the next several hours, he fiddled with his Twitter account - retweeting
another Trump lawyer who said his opening argument was 'excellent' - forgot
which judge he was talking to and threw around wild, unsupported accusations
about a nationwide conspiracy by Democrats to steal the election.

No such evidence has emerged since Election Day.

Giuliani needled an opposing lawyer, calling him 'the man who was very angry
with me, I forgot his name.'

He mistook the judge for a federal judge in a separate Pennsylvania district who
rejected a separate Trump campaign case: 'I was accused of not reading your
opinion and that I did not understand it.'

During several hours of arguments, Judge Brann - an Obama appointee - told
Giuliani that agreeing with him would disenfranchise the more than 6.8 million
Pennsylvanians who voted.

'Can you tell me how this result could possibly be justified?' Brann questioned.
Giuliani responded: 'The scope of the remedy is because of the scope of the
injury.'

The line of questioning on legal matters tripped up Giuliani repeatedly, with
the judge asking what 'standard of review' - there are two - he should apply.

'Err, the normal one,' Giuliani replied. In fact they are called rational
inquiry or strict scrutiny.

And while the hearing was going on, Pennsylvania's Supreme Court ruled against
Donald Trump's presidential campaign's complaint that observers weren't allowed
close enough to observe the electoral count.

The 5-2 decision ruled that Pennsylvania counties could determine the
particulars of election observers, and that state law only required they be 'in
the room' when votes are counted.

The state supreme court found that restrictions that Philadelphia election
officials put in place 'were reasonable in that they allowed candidate
representatives to observe the Board conducting its activities as prescribed
under the Election Code.'

Among the evidence cited were claims made in the campaign's own witness
statements, including by a lawyer who served as an observer and shared
observations from inside a vote canvassing facility. The court's opinion, which
reversed a lower court ruling which was the Trump camp's only significant
victory, noted that the campaign's 'own witness' provided testimony which
contradicted the claim.

It said the restrictions 'did not deprive' the observer of the ability to
observe what went on with the canvassing process in a meaningful way.

The legal setback snatched away the Trump camp's lone win after filing a series
of state lawsuits challenging actions by county election officials in states
that went to Democrat Joe Biden.

Giuliani, however, was unbowed as he argued his case in federal court, launching
lengthy tirades about fraud despite the case not being about it.

'It's a widespread nationwide voter fraud of which this is a part. You'd have to
be a fool to think this was an accident,' Giuliani said.

Trump and his lawyers have yet to provide evidence of such a nationwide
conspiracy – although they have increasingly pointed to voting machines that the
president claims 'deleted' votes from him and 'switched' them to Joe Biden.

Giuliani did not raise complaints about voting machines in court, instead
claiming Democratic-controlled counties didn't allow Republicans to see 'a
single absentee ballot' during counting. This was not in the legal complaint the
campaign had filed.

'I used to vote by absentee ballot a lot, because I traveled a lot,' Giuliani
acknowledged during his argument.

Rather than cite case law, Giuliani described a conspiracy to rig the election
with simultaneous actions in big cities located within states Joe Biden won,
from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh to Detroit and Milwaukee.

'The places it happened, it just all happened to be big cities controlled by
Democrats,' he said.

He even invoked the close 1960 election and the infamous Daley machine in
Chicago.

He called Philadelphia 'well known for voter fraud' and described poll workers
as a 'little mafia.' Without evidence, he accused big cities of 'holding back'
votes.

The dozens of affidavits Trump's lawyers filed in the case, however, do not
assert widespread fraud, but rather the potential for something fishy to occur
because partisan poll watchers weren't given an opportunity to view the results.

Judge Brann allowed Giuliani to talk at length as he wove together his scenario,
even amid a string of individual legal defeats and having individual claims of
dead people voting fall apart, including by a 94-year-old widow who told
DailyMail.com she cast one of the ballots Trump claimed was submitted by a dead
voter.

'This mail-in system, new mail-in system, this whole situation on a smaller
scale goes back to as early as 1960 when Mayor Daley held back votes in Chicago
so that he could tidy up the result to make sure it would go the way he wanted,'
Giuliani said.

'This practice of holding back votes, which happens in my city also your honor,
is a time honored practice.'

Demand was so high to hear Trump's lawyer in action that there were technical
problems when a call-in line that was supposed to be equipped for 4,000 people
got swamped. The judge said 8,000 people tried to get on. DailyMail.com was on
for part of the hearing but the call cut out twice.

The judge then paused the hearing while officials tried to work out technical
glitches.

Attorney Daniel Donavan of Kirkland & Ellis, representing county officials,
argued that the Trump team didn't have standing and couldn't make an case under
the Constitution's Equal Protection clause based on counties providing different
levels of ability for voters to 'cure' ballots.

He noted that Giuliani's claims of fraud weren't in the latest version of his
team's complaint, and that many of the allegations had been deleted.

'That's not in the complaint judge. There are not such allegations,' he said.

Another lawyer for the election officials, Mark Aronchick, went after Giuliani
by name over and over again, saying he doesn't know if he 'has even read' a key
opinion he cited.

'He remembers from his first year law school class something about standing,'
Aronchick said in one of multiple lines from his own argument dripping with
sarcasm.

'He called our election workers, our patriots … the mafia,' he said, again going
after Giuliani. 'This just is disgraceful.' Aronchick called Giuliani's case
'fantasy land.'

Aronchick later appeared on MSNBC where he mocked Giuliani's approach calling it
a 'fact-free presentation.'

'When you're in court you have to talk about the complaint, you have to talk
about your facts, you have to talk about the law,' he said.

'When you're at Four Seasons Total Landscaping I guess you can talk about
anything.'


After hearing arguments and motions for a total of six hours, Brann peppered
Giuliani with questions and gave his team until 5pm Wednesday to file a new
brief. If they do not the case could be dismissed by default.

After a long day of arguments, he advised counsel on both sides 'off the record'
about area restaurants, as well as a martini bar and a brew pub.

Giuliani was defiant as he left court saying that if he loses, he will simply
appeal.

He had already said that the Trump campaign is preparing to lose election cases
in Pennsylvania and other states in a strategy he said would ultimately hand a
final decision to the U.S. Supreme Court.

'Frankly this is a case that we would like to get to the Supreme Court. So we're
prepared in some of these cases to lose and to appeal and to get it to the
Supreme Court,' Giuliani told Fox Business host Maria Bartiromo Tuesday.

The Supreme Court does not have to take up appeals and can simply leave
lower-court rulings in place. And if Trump won, the state in which he won, or
the Democratic party, could appeal to the Supreme Court too.

Giuliani also pointed to a Trump campaign lawsuit in Michigan.

He also mentioned suits in Wisconsin and Georgia. 'Then we'll have three more
right after that.' In all of those states, networks declared Trump the winner.
There is a hand recount under way in Georgia.

Conservatives hold a 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court, but many legal experts
have predicted Trump's efforts will fail, with Biden having amassed 306
electoral votes.

Trump in September signaled he believed an election case would ultimately land
before the Supreme Court, as he made the case to fill the vacancy created by the
death of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

'We need nine justices. You need that, with the unsolicited millions of ballots
that they're sending,' he said.

A new member of Trump's Pennsylvania team said publicly that there aren't enough
'bombshells' out there that would prevent President-elect Joe Biden form taking
office.

The Trump campaign brought on lawyer Marc Scaringi, who also has an AM radio
show, after several other attorneys resigned under public pressure from efforts
to declare the vote in Pennsylvania and other states invalid.

Scaringi himself cast doubt on the effort shortly after TV networks called the
race for Biden after naming him the victor in Pennsylvania.

'I've been saying since Wednesday morning that Biden would win and to my friends
out there ... In my opinion there really are no bombshells that are about to
drop that will derail a Biden presidency, including these lawsuits,' he said on
his show Nov. 7.

'I really don't want to get into a discussion on any of these pending lawsuits
file by the trump campaign or the state GOPs,' he continued. 'I will say that
some of them have merit, like the lawsuits filed by our Pennsylvania Republican
party ... several of the other lawsuits don't seem to have much evidence
substantiated their claims,' he said.

'At the end of the day, in my view, the litigation will not work,' he said. 'It
will not reverse this election.'




*
Siri Cruise
2020-11-18 19:42:18 UTC
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Post by Miloch
*He forgot judge's name, called the opposition lawyer 'that angry man' and
claimed 11 of the biggest cities had a conspiracy to steal the election
Rudy dares the judge to find him in contempt.
Post by Miloch
*He claimed only a 'fool' would think it accidental that Biden won the biggest
cities
How dare city dwellers vote.
Post by Miloch
*'We're prepared in some of these cases to lose and to appeal and to get it to
the Supreme Court,' Giuliani said
Which has been iDJT sooper sekreet strategy: get it to the
Supremes who iDJT thinks will rule for him absent evidence,
precedence, or law.
Post by Miloch
'Big words, your honor,' Giuliani, 76, said.
'Opacity' is now a big word. Wow. Thanks for self-identifying as
an idiot, Rudy.
Post by Miloch
The lawsuit is based on a complaint that Philadelphia and six
Democratic-controlled counties in Pennsylvania let voters make corrections to
mail-in ballots that were otherwise going to be disqualified for a technicality,
like lacking a secrecy envelope or a signature.
So Rudy's argument is that ballot curing is now illegal.
Post by Miloch
Giuliani began the legal case saying he wants around 600,000 cases thrown out,
but the number went up in the court of the day to as many as two million.
Since the anonymous ballots can't be identified once counted,
Rudy wants to discard valid ballots, disenfranchising voters. I
assume he was to exclude Biden votes alone, so this becomes an
after the fact voter disenfranchisement to match their before the
fact voter disenfranchisement.
Post by Miloch
'It's a widespread nationwide voter fraud of which this is a part. You'd have to
be a fool to think this was an accident,' Giuliani said.
Yeah, Biden and his 78 million conspirators.
--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
I am an Andrea Doria sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed
Miloch
2020-11-18 21:14:01 UTC
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In article <chine.bleu-***@reader.eternal-september.org>, Siri
Cruise says...
Post by Miloch
*He forgot judge's name, called the opposition lawyer 'that angry man' and
claimed 11 of the biggest cities had a conspiracy to steal the election
Giuliani has an audience of one...Trump...and as long as Trump's happy with his
"Roy Cohen" looking after his back, Rudy could care less what anyone else
thinks...


*
Malcolm McMahon
2020-11-18 23:28:54 UTC
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Post by Miloch
...calls other lawyer 'that angry man,' claims 11 biggest cities are conspiring
to steal election, then gets directions to nearest bar (and demands $20,000 a
day!)
But does any of this matter? Whatever the outcome at this level it seems to me
it will inevitably wind up with the Supreme Court. Then we find out just how
politicised SCOTUS is these days. Will SCOTUS split along partisan lines?

When Trump first looked like a possible winner against Hillary, I wondered if
the constitution was strong enough to contain him. In the next few weeks we
will see. We will find out if the electorate decides or SCOTUS. If Trump wins
this one in the courts another four years will allow him to cement his power.
Appoint more loyalists to SCOTUS. Once they've rolled over for him there will
be no going back for them. The Trump Dynasty will rule indefinitely.

And will the majority of Americans who are against Trump stand for it?
Siri Cruise
2020-11-18 23:52:44 UTC
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Post by Malcolm McMahon
But does any of this matter? Whatever the outcome at this level it seems to me
it will inevitably wind up with the Supreme Court. Then we find out just how
politicised SCOTUS is these days. Will SCOTUS split along partisan lines?
You don't hsve a right to the Supremes. They cam reject appeals.

Though that is iDJT's announced strategy: get the cases into his
packed court which will decide he won without ebidence, law, or
precedent. Kavanaugh is drunk enough. It would also destroy the
judiciary. Roberts knows that.

And I hate these purblind days.
--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
I am an Andrea Doria sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed
Malcolm McMahon
2020-11-19 14:00:33 UTC
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Post by Siri Cruise
Post by Malcolm McMahon
But does any of this matter? Whatever the outcome at this level it seems to me
it will inevitably wind up with the Supreme Court. Then we find out just how
politicised SCOTUS is these days. Will SCOTUS split along partisan lines?
You don't hsve a right to the Supremes. They cam reject appeals.
Haven't they already said they'll take the case?
Post by Siri Cruise
Though that is iDJT's announced strategy: get the cases into his
packed court which will decide he won without ebidence, law, or
precedent. Kavanaugh is drunk enough. It would also destroy the
judiciary. Roberts knows that.
No doubt Trump knows that too. He won't be bothered.
Post by Siri Cruise
And I hate these purblind days.
Likewise.

It seems to be that America is dangerously close to the kind of meltdown that
eventually saw the downfall of Rome, and that if America becomes an
isolationist autocracy (as it might if Trump wins this one) there's little
chance for democracy worldwide.

And if his plan B fails, how much damage can he do before 20th Janurary? If
he's angling for candicacy in 2024 (plan C) then the more chaos during a Biden
presidency the better his chances.

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